Show Notes

Government Relations, with David McCredie AM, OBE

 

Navigating Government Relations and Effective Leadership in the Nonprofit Sector In this episode of The Service Game podcast, host Julie Krieger sits down with David McCredie, founder of McCredie Partners. They discuss essential leadership skills, the importance of authenticity in networking, and effective strategies for nonprofit organisations to engage with government entities. David shares insights from his extensive experience in chambers of commerce, including the Australian British Chamber of Commerce, and offers practical advice on building government relations, advocating for policy changes, and the significance of having a strong relationship with the board and its chair. Tune in for valuable, actionable tips on how to make a meaningful impact in the nonprofit sector.

00:00 Introduction to the Service Game Podcast

00:56 Meet Dave McCredie: Leadership Insights

02:39 The Art of Networking

06:21 Chambers of Commerce: Advocates for Business

09:14 Navigating Leadership Challenges

18:50 Building Government Relations

26:48 Building Trust Through Small Wins

27:47 Navigating Government Grants and Policies

29:41 Effective Advocacy and Lobbying Strategies

32:35 The Art of Compromise in Politics

38:56 Engaging with Government Departments

46:04 Dave's Passion for Advocacy and Consultancy

49:13 Conclusion and Contact Information

 

LINKS:

Openly – https://advocateopenly.com

www.onsomble.com.au

Show transcript

Ep 13:  Government Relations, with David McCredie AM, OBE

 Thank you for joining us for today's episode of the Service Game podcast. I'm Julie Krieger, and today I am absolutely delighted to be introducing you to our wonderful guest, McCredie, AM, OBE.

Today I am talking to David about government relations and advocacy and how important that is in the life of a not-for-profit association.

So a little bit more about Dave. Dave is the managing partner of McCredie Partners, a boutique advisory firm, which specialises in working with international corporate clients and emerging technologies. His advice is sought by clients in international investment market entry and diversification strategy, corporate and government affairs.

His significant background representing business and working closely with government at the Australian British Chamber of Commerce and Business Hunter before entering the private sector, gave him a deep understanding of government and business engagement. Dave's contributions to both sides in the development of the Australia UK free trade agreement. Were a driving force behind the speed of negotiations and the quality and breadth of outcomes achieved. He was an instrumental campaigner for the creation of the Australian Business Growth Fund and the Australian Clinical Entrepreneurs Program, among other initiatives to boost growth in emerging businesses and alignment.

With government objectives, David holds a Bachelor of Arts from the University of Technology, Sydney, and an MBA from the University of Newcastle. He's also an alumni of the Duke of Edinburgh's Commonwealth Study Conference UK and a graduate of the Australian Institute of Company Directors. He's currently serving as a director of CSC Australia and the Commonwealth Day Council of New South Wales.

He's previously held a role as the chairman of an A SX listed company too. David was made an officer of the order of the British Empire in 2020 and a member of the Order of Australia in 2022 for services to trade and investment between Australia and the uk. So it's quite an impressive cv.

But more than that, and you'll hear this in the chat that Dave and I have. He's just a really lovely person who has people at the center of everything he does. He's a great leader. He's really wise, and this is such a fabulous chat. I really hope you enjoy.

Julie Krieger: [00:00:00] Welcome to the Service Game podcast. Brought to you by Onsomble. I'm your host, Julie Krieger. For the past 14 years, I've been helping associations to grow and thrive, establishing systems, writing policies and procedures, implementing membership and sponsorship. Strategies, setting up operations, undertaking complete governance, restructures, developing strategies, and advising CEOs, presidents, and boards.

Julie Krieger: I am driven to support the hardworking people who give their time, heart and soul in the service of their members and in the pursuit of the greater good. Join me as we delve deep into this innovative, creative, values-based and mission-driven thing. I call the service game. Let's get going with today's episode.

Julie Krieger: Dave McCredie, am OBE. [00:01:00] Welcome and thank you very much for joining me here today on the Service Game podcast. Pleasure, Jules, always great to see you. Ah, always great to see you.

Julie Krieger: You've had such an interesting career and I'm delighted to delve into it a little bit today and see what we can extrapolate from your vast experience that could be useful and applicable in the not-for-profit world. I know you've had experience in that area yourself, and I wanted to kick off by asking you a kind of leadership based question, I suppose.

Julie Krieger: What do you think are your business superpowers? Yeah, look, that's a really interesting question. I think probably my ability to listen. Don't get me wrong, I like talking as well, but listening is important and I think listening to the people around you and within your, group. So , in Not-for-Profit worlds that I've been involved in, it's been about membership.

David McCredie: It's been the Australian British Chamber of Commerce and the was the Hunter [00:02:00] Business Chamber now business hunter, I think those sorts of worlds. But also even back when I was working in Cricket New South Wales, many, many moons ago, it's about listening to the people around you and understanding their context.

David McCredie: And I think that's what enables you to find the gaps in the market. You can fill the opportunities for yourself to do something new, different, exciting rather than just, you know, filling out forms and standing in line. So to speak. So I think those are probably the things that have given me the most, listening and then networking connecting those dots because you've listened and you understand, and then being able to see those opportunities and bring the right people together.

David McCredie: Is there a knack to networking that doesn't make it feel purposeful, I guess? You know, there are other words I could put in there, like a little bit slimy or whatever, you know. But really what I'm asking is how do you make it seem kind of natural ? I guess it's about how you turn up.

David McCredie: It's how you turn up for yourself as much as [00:03:00] for the other person. Because if you turn up for yourself and you are, you know, there's another drink stew, or it's another lunch, or it's another coffee that I don't really wanna be at, or it's a social situation around the barbecue and.

David McCredie: You think, well, I like so and so, but their partner isn't very nice. All of those things that we, we all have them at various times. If you turn up and you allow yourself down that path, you can't turn up as your best self. So I always think about the authenticity that I want to have for myself in this moment.

David McCredie: And when you turn up authentically for yourself, I find it much easier to turn up authentically for the person who you are listening to. And therefore you start actively listening in a way where you are thinking, not necessarily what can I do with this person, or how do I make money out of this?

David McCredie: Or what's the next deal? There are lots of things that when you're [00:04:00] having a chat with somebody at a barbecue, for example or whatever, and there's no pressure for a business deal , or anything else, and you are just having a chat. Sometimes there are people, you know, that can help somebody else in their moment of need.

David McCredie: And I think when you turn up authentically to be that person who can connect a dot for somebody else, they will turn up authentically for you in that same way. So when you turn up and you are, you know, I'm here to make a deal and I'm, pushing hard, oftentimes the reaction on the other side of the conversation is, oh, you know, wait, I don't want to be sold.

David McCredie: I've had a barbecue. I don't want to get sold a new car or watch or whatever. Or, you know, some real estate scheme. I'm not here for that. I'm just here to have a barbecue and, have night flight conversation. Talk about interesting things, and engage people as people.

David McCredie: One of the things about business networking that I always know is. Whilst I can't tell you the name of every [00:05:00] person I've ever met, spouse or their kids or their grandparents or whatever. The people who spend the most time asking you about yours, if you ask them about theirs, what you find is that the relationship you develop is built on a level of trust.

David McCredie: Because if I'm prepared to trust you with the information about my family, which for most people is one of the closest things you hold to your chest then I'm probably likely to trust you with a lot of other information. Just depends on what it is and how it can come forward. So I think the key thing to networking well is turning up as your authentic self and not pretending to be somebody else, but also turning up authentically for the other person if you listen actively, you'll find things that connect, you, find commonalities, find reasons to do things together. Yeah, absolutely. And the commonality is an important thing, isn't it? That's, that's where the connection is often made in those points of [00:06:00] shared interest or shared values.

David McCredie: You've spoken a bit, sort of peripherally, , around the value in service and the value in being there to support people. And your career has been spent, in service areas, and as has mine and I love it for a variety of reasons. What is the role that Chambers of Commerce play as advocates for their members?

David McCredie: Yeah, I mean, that's the reason for Chambers of Commerce being really, it's an opportunity for. Business people, leaders, but it's not only leaders, it's the whole business community to come together in a way where we can support each other. Now that changes shape and, every chamber is different.

David McCredie: when I was at the Hunter Business Chamber, I used to go and visit many of the little Chambers dotted throughout the hunter. Whether it was Cessnock or, the Hamilton High Streetor, the Derby Street chamber, in [00:07:00] Newcastle it was very different needs in different places, different expectations, different groups of people.

David McCredie: And each one can be different, even from a local chamber perspective. But, you know, international chambers running the Australian British Chamber of Commerce, we ran our organisation very differently to, the UK Australia Chamber in the uk or AmCham, the Australian, american chamber here. So yeah, every organisation has to find its own flavor and its own way about things, and part of that's culture and part of that'sfinding those commonalities as we're talking about the shared interests of the group of people who get together. it's no different than a sports club.

David McCredie: You don't join a cricket club if you're not interested in cricket. You join a business chain because you're interested in business and you're interested in the things that affect the business community that you are in. So it's the same sort of approach, I guess. where can they add the greatest value then?

David McCredie: Sorry to cut you off. No, that's all right. So, well, in my experience, obviously at very different levels. I remember the Hamilton High Street in [00:08:00] Newcastle was very concerned about, when rubbish collection was happening, how it was happening when the street was closed for major events for the local community.

David McCredie: And the business chamber used to put some of those things on in partnership with council. So it's about how do you negotiate those things with government, but with other businesses, with our community more broadly. Equally, when I was at the Australian British Chamber of Commerce, I was heavily involved in negotiating a free trade agreement between two countries.

David McCredie: And rubbish wasn't part of the agenda for that conversation, so That's so interesting. Nor a street party, unfortunately. I think we've really missed a trick by not having a street party put in as part of the process. But there are very different ways and different levels of engagement that people and organisations.

David McCredie: Need to haveto activate government at different levels. Working with the local council has a lot of the same traits and a lot of the same processes, but is a very different beast to negotiating with Department of Health, infrastructure, defense treasury, or indeed [00:09:00] between two countries in terms ofthe free trade agreement.

David McCredie: So lots of similar processes perhaps, but different relationships and different alignments to find ways to build trust, and the trust can build you an outcome. You didn't come into either of those roles. I'm assuming with the requisite skillset, that was probably like most of us, something that you would've developed over time in that role.

David McCredie: How did you step into a role such as the one you had with the British Australian Chamber and think, oh yeah, I can tackle that. I can negotiate a free trade agreement? Well, it wasn't the first job on the agenda to be honest. Thankfully because when I started at the Australian British Chamber of Commerce, it was 2010.

David McCredie: The UK was very much still part of the eu. And it wasn't till the Brexit referendum, which was in 2016, that the wheels of the UK EU relationship fell off and, a free trade agreement became possible. You're [00:10:00] right. When I started at the British Chamber of Commerce, I'd never run an organisation before, I hadn't been the CEO of anything before, and suddenly I was the CEO of the British Chamber of Commerce.

David McCredie: And look, I think there are lots of different things and lots of different experiences that you look back and draw on from experiences, but also from, again, listening to other people about their experiences and knowledge that you pick up along the way. By the time I started at the British Chamber, done an undergraduate degree.

David McCredie: I'd done my MBA at Newcastle. I'd been involved in decision making processes at the Hunter Business Chamber. Equally, I'd help write strategy at Cricket New South Wales. So I think you pick up different elements and you just have a go.

David McCredie: and when you take on a role like that, you have a board. And the board is really important, particularly the chair is really important in having somebody who understands that you don't necessarily have every box ticked. The not-for-profit sector is a great example.

David McCredie: There are [00:11:00] some great big not-for-profits where perhaps the CEOs when they start do, have every box ticked, but there are an enormous number of not-for-profit organisations that I've come across over in my time where it's for the love of it, people are volunteering you know, largely run by volunteers.

David McCredie: Maybe one or two staff, maybe it's more staff. And in those situations, people probably haven't run something like that before. And even the people who are on the board may not have run something like that before. But it's about sort of finding a way to, to have the village you know, grow you as a child of, of administration, if that makes sense.

David McCredie: And I was very lucky. my chairman, David Leser was really fantastic for me in a lot of ways. He challenged me a lot. It wasn't an easy journey, particularly at the beginning when I didn't have everything that he was hoping for at my fingertips every moment.

David McCredie: And yeah, that was hard. But I think when you want to be a leader and when you want to take on a challenge like that, there's plenty of other jobs to go and find [00:12:00] without having to be a leader. Like a CEO or a business leader in that context, I think everybody can be a leader regardless of where you're at on the food chain, by the way.

David McCredie: But I think when you decide that that's something that you'd like to try and do, you've gotta just back yourself and you've just gotta have a level of self-confidence and a level of trust with hopefully the chairperson. Equally, you can build it up in the team around you that you can share a vision and that will help you.

David McCredie: People will lean in if you've got the right vision and if you're, again, turning up authentically and saying, Hey look, I really dunno how to read the p and l of a multinational company and we need to do some research for some questions for this thing. Can you help? Well, your accountant probably, hopefully can help.

David McCredie: rather than trying to bluff your way through. Being really comfortable in your own skin to put your hand up and say, okay, I dunno, this onewho else has some ideas around the table and can [00:13:00] help me because we've gotta get through this, we've gotta find the way.

David McCredie: Yeah. And there's been a lot of the experience on that journey particularly at the beginning. But COVID, there've been other times where as much experience as you have, you feel like you're a novice again. I think we all have those moments or days in our careers.

David McCredie: On a previous episode, I was talking to Steve Vamos, who's quite the. Expert on leadership? And a lot of what you are talking about is very similar to the sorts of points that he made. one of the interesting things he said was that if you are the CEO and you've got a great relationship with your chair, then almost anything else, and I'm paraphrasing can be overcome that's kind of at the heart of a productive relationship between the management leader and the board or strategic leader.

David McCredie: If you could order up a good chair as a CEO, what would you have on your wishlist? I think somebody who listens first and foremost. [00:14:00] One of the challenges of leadership sometimes is there are problems that. wind up on your desk.

David McCredie: And the reason why problems wind up on your desk is because if they were easy to solve, somebody else would've solved it and moved on. The hard ones are the ones that wind up on your desk generally as a leader, and it's about then being asked to use your judgment to make those decisions. And I think at times that can be quite a lonely job because there are times where you can ask for your team's input and those things, but at the end of the day, when it comes to some decisions, you are very much accountable.

David McCredie: You have to make that decision. You have to be present and ready for the consequences of your decision making process. And I think when you have a great chair or a great board more broadly and, and I've been very fortunate to have both at various times in my career, it just makes it so much easier when you are able to say, okay.

David McCredie: I don't have to have all the answers [00:15:00] here, can take the information. I can go and have a confidential chat with somebody who knows my business, probably knows some of the personalities in the business, if it's a, conflict between departments or areas of the business or personality types you know, there are lots of different things that feed into challenging conversations.

David McCredie: But having somebody that you can just say, Hey, look, I'm really not sure what I'm meant to be doing here. It feels like this, but I kind of have this other sense. I'm feeling a little bit murky.

David McCredie: Could we just talk it through a little bit? And, we can , sort of tackle it together. That's really helpful. The opportunity to have that sort of partnership where you can have an open and frank conversation about what's going on.

David McCredie: it's really important from a governance perspective that the board does know when those tricky times are sitting on the CEO's desk and what they are. Because as a board, you're not doing your job if you're not aware of those things, as they're happening. So yeah, the relationship with the chair is [00:16:00] really important.

David McCredie: What would that look like? Listening, certainly that sense of empathy and compassion for your situation good, strong guidance and experience of their own that they can share.

David McCredie: Which may or may not help, but just being able to try and help you see things, , from a different perspective. Because I think quite often challenges on first view are very difficult, particularly the ones that wind up on a CEO's desk. And sometimes just turning the prism slightly gives you a completely different angle to attack the issue.

David McCredie: Quite frankly those are the really key things.

David McCredie: It sounds like trust it's gotta be a mutual thing and it's gotta be at the heart of that relationship. Yeah, absolutely. I probably should put that at number one on the list really, because,

David McCredie: if you can't have a trusting relationshipAll the other follow-ons don't work. Mm-hmm. And I've been in that situation too, [00:17:00] and it is really difficult and it's emotionally draining. It's challenging the sense of feeling undermined and, not being taken seriously, not being valued.

David McCredie: Trust doesn't even need to be broken. It just needs to be slightly bent people, as soon as they don't feel like the trust is there.

David McCredie: Nothing else really matters. Everything else just drops away. Because if I don't trust that you are going to look after me, well I'll start looking for a new job. And so, yeah, it's kind of very damaging. And when you're in a business that is focused on service, I think it's even more so a critical element.

David McCredie: Because we are allin the business of relationships. Yeah, that's right. And I think, the not-for-profit sector is, I love the UK phrase, they call it the, for purpose sector. and I think that's a much better way of putting it becauseI think not-for-profits actually completely [00:18:00] misnamed altogether, but that's another conversation.

David McCredie: but the purpose conversation is really important because it does mean that people really are passionate about what they do and why they're doing it.

David McCredie: It is just that they are really passionate about, supporting kids with cancer or. Running an international chamber of commerce, almost everybody who turns up in this sector has that passion, whether they're, at the top of the tree or the bottom of the tree, whether it's a big organisation or a small organisation.

David McCredie: Not many people just take a job in a not-for-profit business because need a job. Generally speaking, people do it because, I wanna make the world a better place because of what we're doing.

David McCredie: Yeah, absolutely. Mission, mission driven business. Yeah. Love it. Love it, love it. I could talk about mission and the importance of it till the cows come home, .

 

David McCredie: Can I talk to you just for a second about government relations specifically? It's an area of activity that a lot of not-for-profits or for [00:19:00] purpose organisations want to engage in or potentially would benefit from engaging in, but potentially dunno how, yeah.

David McCredie: Or dunno where to start or dunno how to start building those relationships. How did you learn about it? If you were just starting out in government relations in a not-for-profit. Where would you find the low hanging fruit? Yeah, that's a, that's a really good question.

David McCredie: I think,

David McCredie: There's a couple of pieces here. So one is if you are representing your own organisation, you can pretty much do whatever you like. Should we quote you on that? Well, not, don't necessarily, broadcast on the headline of the , the podcast and on the front page of the paper.

David McCredie: but honestly, it's interesting because there's actually an organisation called Openly that that are, are trying to address this. So I'm a registered lobbyist. Now lobbyist has a dreadful connotation in Australia because, oh, it's so and so who's, you know, backdoor deals with government [00:20:00] and it's this and it's that,

David McCredie: advocacy and lobbying with government is vital to a successful society because if you think about it, the same lobbying that, gets a local road resurfaced or a speed hump and a pedestrian crossing put outside the local school or, whatever the cause may be.

David McCredie: whether it's getting the surf club roof rebuilt because there was a storm and it got blown off , there are lots of different times where governments need to lean into what's happening in our community.

David McCredie: And our community needs to lean into government to tell them what's happening. think of all the times that you've heard it's said about politicians that they're tenured or they don't listen and they don't understand the average Australian and that out of touch. How can they possibly be in touch if we're not talking to them, if we are not sharing with them our stories, our situations, the things that are impacting us.

David McCredie: So I think it's vitally important [00:21:00] that people in organisations in our community talk deliberately with government about what's happening. And yeah, I'm very lucky that I've met lots of politicians over the years, many of whom I call friends on all sides of the political divide, both state, federal, and in the uk and various other places.

David McCredie: and I think the thing that I always find is they're always interested. Politicians generally, not always, but generally are interested in finding out what you think of the world because as much as they are also very keen to tell you their view of the world and will agree or disagree with whatever you put in front of them oftentimes they don't know about what you are gonna be telling them about.

David McCredie: So if you are running an organisation that has a particular purpose and even if it was, the local netball competition, how many times do you see in your friend's photos on Facebook or Instagram, oh, the local member was down at the netball [00:22:00] finals, handing out the trophies and, saying hello to everyone.

David McCredie: That's because somebody invited that person to turn up. They didn't just go, oh, it's Saturday morning. Why don't I go down the netball courts and see if there are trophies to hand out. So advocacy and lobbying can be relatively soft touch to start with and if you are thinking about an organisation who is either you think you are going to be exposed to an issue or you already are.

David McCredie: Being in touch with government early is always better than waiting to see what happens and then figure it out because normally is way too late. Okay. So a couple of questions that come to my mind from that and they're both, based around the fact that politicians are very, very busy people and lots of people want their ear.

David McCredie: How do you get cut through? How do you get your message heard and how do you, the second part to it, is how do you build those relationships in a time when you [00:23:00] don't have something to talk to them about necessarily, or certainly not something time critical? Yeah, so I think the thing is yeah, if you think about when I started at the Australian British Chamber of Commerce.

David McCredie: We weren't negotiating a free trade agreement. We weren't doing, really weren't doing very much when I first started at the British Chamber. And it was all business to business type things. It didn't involve government at all, but I knew that government would be important over the lifetime of my leadership at the chamber, my stewardship of the chamber.

David McCredie: So I made the point at the beginning of writing to the relevant ministers and shadow ministers that might touch the sorts of things that we're interested at the British Chamber. And I wrote to them and I said, hi, I'm David. I've just taken over this role. I went to DFAS pages and I pulled out some stats on trade and investment and said that, it's been sort of about the same for a little while now.

David McCredie: I'd love to [00:24:00] Push that forward. I think there's some great outcomes for government in that if there's more jobs here in Australia, more investment, you know, find the reasons that would be interesting to them to be in touch with me at some point potentially. So say why it's interesting to them, the local netball competition represents, 3000 players over, three nights of the week and on Saturday afternoons or whatever.

David McCredie: That's a lot of constituents for a local member, that's a great reason for that local member to be involved. Have your case, why is what you are doing useful? and when you are in that for purpose mindset, you know what that is for your organisation.

David McCredie: And then think about it from why it's interesting for them. And that's a lot of the work that I do now and have done arguably throughout my chamber career, is it's actually understanding what the person opposite you wants and how can you give it to them? And part of that conversation is [00:25:00] really driven by making the person opposite.

David McCredie: You know, what they want in particular. So, the local MP at the netball comp, they want more votes. So if they can go around and see a few moms and dads and convince 'em to vote for me next time, well, oh yes, David McCredie was at my local netball courts. I'll vote for him next time.

David McCredie: 'cause he obviously cares about netball. Maybe true, maybe not true. Politicians aren't necessarily always into everything they're at, but I think that when you do that early engagement. Even if they don't respond.

David McCredie: Somebody will read it at the other end, guaranteed. And not only will they read it, they will think about it. And there will be other opportunities as you go along. You might be at something else in the local community, you see the minister. You walk over and you say, hi, minister Dave McCredie.

David McCredie: I'm here from the netball competition down the road, but I'm actually here on other business tonight, but I've sent you a letter a few weeks ago. I'd love to have you [00:26:00] come down at some point. No particular reason, but we're interested in helping you understand our community and we'd like to have a conversation.

David McCredie: We'd like to start a relationship and. When you start doing that, even if the local member says, you know, I'm very busy and I can't possibly, you just keep nudging that relationship along. And then when you do get an issue like, we've seen plenty of storms and cyclones and oh, we need new rings, and there's a local members grant for community infrastructure that we've looked up online and we can get $10,000 to buy new rings.

David McCredie: Would you be prepared to support it? Now that one's a pretty easy one, right? Then when you go you know, yes, it's in my purview to sign off on that. It goes through this process. Here's how you do it. They feel like they're getting engaged with you. You are getting engaged with them, but it's still little bickies.

David McCredie: Then when you ask to get the whole netball, courts resurfaced. I've got no idea why I started down this netball path, but anyway, it's working [00:27:00] for me at the moment. I'm enjoying it. But you know, you wanna get all the netball courts resurfaced and it's suddenly, you know, it's hundreds of thousands of dollars.

David McCredie: Oh, well, I've seen them around a lot. They invited me to their awards day. Yeah. Even though I couldn't go, they took advantage of that local grant and I was able to support them So you build those little wins along the way and those touch points along the way so that when the bigger issues do come along, you are also not sitting down with somebody who doesn't know anything about you to start with.

David McCredie: Has a level of trust already built up with you. Probably, not only do they have trust, but they have a level of buy-in into who you are and why they should want to support you. So if they can, they're gonna be more predisposed to hopefully being open to at least having the conversation and at least seeing where they can go.

David McCredie: Now there's very strict rules around probity. There's very strict rules around how government grants are given out and a whole bunch of different things. Not everything is as easy as what I may have outlined, but that's the reason why you [00:28:00] start at the beginning is, and it doesn't matter if you think you're not being heard.

David McCredie: I bet you you are, and I bet you that over time these small numbers of small touch points add up to something quite valuable. And I've seen it time and time again in different fora. The local council, the state government, and federally, and in the UK and internationally I've seen it.

David McCredie: So those things are, are very important. Yeah, that's fabulous. And really tangible advice. I love it. Netball analogy, notwithstandingyou've never done anything for a netball club, so I'm not quite sure why I went down that path, but you must have been feeding off the vibes. I've spent a lot of time on the netball sidelines.

David McCredie: Anyway. It's a sporting team and,

David McCredie: can relate to that in some way.

 

David McCredie: in terms of affecting policy change or having some sort of impact in [00:29:00] regard to an organisation's, key purpose. Is there much of a difference depending on what level of government you're aiming to impact? yeah, I think so.

David McCredie: I mean, yeah, at every level you should have a proposition and maybe not an exact business case, but a reason for what you are proposing. even at the local netball association level to keep down this silly path having an idea of how much it would cost to resurface the courts is gonna be the first question that gets asked.

David McCredie: You need to have done some research. It's sensible to have, page or two of, the reasons why. And so that you can leave thatwith the relevant person. When I think about the grander scale, things that I've been involved in, whether it'sthe free trade agreement or whether it's been some of the other bilateral pieces the FinTech bridge or other things along the journey, I think it's really important that you have three [00:30:00] levels of detail.

David McCredie: So when you're thinking about policy in a overarching space, like health policy and how do. How do the grants for fitter here we are. I can fit all of this together perfectly here. Jules, there are grants within the Department of Health for sporting facilities that's much smaller than grants in other parts, but it's about keeping Australia fitter healthier.

David McCredie: If we're healthier, we need less healthcare. Yeah. It's as simple as that. Yeah. And so there are grants for the community in the Department of Health. Now, if you are talking about the Department of Health and you're thinking about, how we approach smoking or obesity or other, chronic issues within our society.

David McCredie: Turning up with one page which says there are this many people, there's this, there's an element of that will get some attention. That's not gonna change anyone's policy. They're just gonna say, that's really interesting and yes, we probably [00:31:00] should do something about it, but that doesn't gimme enough.

David McCredie: So what you need to be able to do after getting the attention is, and it won't be read by the minister, it'll be read by one of their staffers and then it'll be sent to the department for somebody in the department to read and sort of say, well, what does this feel like? Keeping in mind people think government is, it's all one place.

David McCredie: The government, the minister sits in an office, in Parliament House. they can have an office in the department as well, but they are effectively like the chairman of the board of the department, not the CEO. The CEO of the department is actually the secretary of that department, and their job is to run the department.

David McCredie: The minister doesn't get something and say, oh, I'll give that to the person who's, doing obesity because they wouldn't have a clue who that person is because that's not the level to which they're exposed within the department. We can trace that down. The advisor will read it [00:32:00] to see if there's something that's worthwhile from their own political perspective to take forward.

David McCredie: The department will look at it and try and assess it against what other pieces of policy are trying to cover that particular area. Whether this is a gap in the market altogether whether it's something that has been considered before and rejected for whatever reasonwhat the outcome was, whether it was positive, but you know, we didn't get enough funding or we ran a pilot and, you know, there are lots of ways that things can get lost in government.

David McCredie: Lots ways. So when you're thinking about those broader policy changes, you need to have something which has got some substance to it. It needs to be well researched, it doesn't need to be a full academic paper, but it needs to have credible references, credible people supporting your case.

David McCredie: So if you thought you were on trial for your life, wouldn't just sort of try and make a pitch yourself in 20 minutes and hope it all went [00:33:00] well, you'd try and find the best barrister you could, you'd try and find all your closest friends who are prepared to say wonderful things about you.

David McCredie: You'd be looking for. Other cases where, people were put in the same situation and, you'd be asking for contrition, you'd be looking for as many different angles and approaches you could, and finding a response which provides a logical, ethical, and valuable contribution to the discussion that's happening.

David McCredie: oftentimes in my career, the things that I've been advocating for have actually really been, I've been advocating against something. as much as sometimes I've been pushing forward particular proposals, there are also times where actually I'm against that proposal. And when you're against, it's really interesting because it's more interesting on that side, I find, than when you're for something.

David McCredie: 'cause when you're for it, it's very [00:34:00] easy to be passionate about. We're gonna do this, we're gonna do that. It's gonna be this and that. Bells and whistles and things, you know, fireworks are going off in your mind and you think this is gonna be wonderful When you're fighting against something, it is generally much more internal and personal.

David McCredie: But it's also then about not just letting the emotion of that personal touch be there it's actually being really clear about the logic that you need to support that position. Hmm. And then being really clear about the evidence base that you have.

David McCredie: And that goes back to the resources and the referencing and what experts can you get to talk about you know, again, thinking about you're on trial for your life, you're on trial for whatever that idea is. And if you are gonna support it or be against it, you have to have that level of evidence to, to get that because public servants.

David McCredie: And I'm gonna make a really bad sweeping generalisation. I apologize profusely to all the great public servants I know. [00:35:00] But public servants love it when people give them an answer. Yeah. Because it helps them do their job. No different than when I was talking about earlier ministers. Members of parliament local members, counselors, everybody wants to hear your experience or not want hear it in the depth that you wanna share it, but they want hear, they wanna hear, hear what's going on for you because it helps inform their decision making.

David McCredie: I think that's where a lot of people sort of go wrong, is they often start with a fight, which is emotional and visceral. And the moment to take the breath is the one right at the very beginning. Take the breath, assess the situation. Work through what you think the options are, what the case you have for or against a particular project is, and then, work through it, through the strategy, through the campaign strategy.

David McCredie: The case for the case against why, whichever case you are supporting [00:36:00] has more weight. And I think importantly, the other thing to do is, particularly when you're running not-profit organisations, one of the great things that governments love to do when they're not really committed to a particular idea is find reasons not to do things.

David McCredie: And the classic one is wellthe community doesn't want it or, the community's not ready for it, or there's disagreement in the community about what the outcome is. So if you have a group. That is for something. And you have groups against, if you can, before it goes into the government domain, do the community outreach,

David McCredie: you've gotta engage other people and come up with some sort of a solution. And the easiest thing is when multiple options are put on the desk of a politician, you'll almost invariably not get a decision. Ah, the confused mind says no. Well, I'm just not [00:37:00] convinced Between option one and option two.

David McCredie: Which one's better? Why don't you guys go away? And come back with something. Or alternatively, what I'll do is I'll send it, you know, if they're a government minister, the number of reports that get written because, you know and we're reasonably good at this. Now, at the federal level, you've got the Business Council of Australia, which represents, the top thousand businesses in Australia, largest businesses.

David McCredie: You've got the Australian Chamber of Commerce and Industry, you've got the Australian industry group. And then within those three. and outside of those three, you have every bilateral chamber of commerce. You have every industry body. So think about accountants.

David McCredie: There's CPA, and there's ca, think about, the Governance Institute or A ICD. there are loads of examples where if as an industry or as a group or as a body, you can't form one view, government will always have the option. Of not liking either one enough to actually change anything.

David McCredie: So you've gotta find as many of the compromises, the art of [00:38:00] politics is actually the art of the compromise. It's not the art of the greatest idea in the boldest ambition, it's how do I compromise? How do I move the needle forward incrementally? How do I perhaps start with a bold statement knowing that I might only get half of that, but negotiate people at least halfway up that needle.

David McCredie: Yeah, perfect. So that we actually do move forward. Yeah. And that's a large part of the advocacy and lobbying space is knowing what your end goal is, and then trying just slowly to build the trust, build the coalescence around the outcome that actually we could all live with rather than the one that is perfect.

David McCredie: Yes, yes. Noting it's hardly ever going to be perfect for everyone. If you can find an example, Jules, where that has been the case, I would be delighted to read up on it. 'cause I have yet to find one. Yeah, perfect. Something you said earlier was in regard to that [00:39:00] really key differentiation between the ministerial side of government and the departmental side of the operations, if you like, of government.

David McCredie: How important then, is it for people who are seeking to advocate on whatever, to build those relationships early with both of those sides? Is it even possible? Yeah, absolutely it is. And I think, look, it isn't easy. If it was easy, everybody would be doing it all the time, right? it does take a level of application.

David McCredie: It takes time. It takes, quite often a lot of setbacks to find the right paths, the right people. And I, I don't mean setbacks because people are, are just saying no and being mean or nasty or whatever. More often than not government departments I think the word complex is an interesting one because if you could square it and then multiply it by infinity, you probably have how most people feel [00:40:00] about dealing with government.

David McCredie: You know, I have a myGov id, I log into the a TO with that, I can log into Centrelink with that, I can log into Services Australia with that. But actually if I want to do something here. Yes, I can log in that way, but I can't actually make a transaction because it hasn't identified me over here differently from this or that.

David McCredie: And they don't talk to each other. That's what technology does. The humans behind it built it. So if they were connected in that way within, and that silos between different departments, silos within departments exist. I mean, there are huge gaps because people can't be across everything. Only the leaders at the top can see as much of the field as possible, and even then they can only see as much as they can see.

David McCredie: You can't be briefed about every, you know what? New South Wales Health is one of the largest employees, I think in the Southern Hemisphere, in the hundreds of [00:41:00] thousands of workers. You can't possibly have a secretary of that department or a minister of that department. Know everything that's happened in every hospital or every ambulance in every site across the whole of New South Wales in the last 24 hours.

David McCredie: Because you'd be briefing constantly and they'd never be doing anything else. They'd just be learning about, oh, well, somebody did this and somebody did that and this fell over and an ambulance ran into a telegraph pole here. There are so many things that would just clog the system.

David McCredie: So people have delegations for that reason. And the best way in is to start by looking at where they come out. So government departments quite often have outreach moments. There's one for the Department of Defense in July in Canberra, which I'm gonna Canberra for, where they have a session where they say, we'd like to hear from defense industry.

David McCredie: We are gonna bring csg, which is the. The [00:42:00] capability and sustainment group of the Department of Defense want to hear from you, but we're, we're gonna present on these topics, but then we'd like to also be engaging with you about, and then you go, oh, there's a person from defense. Let me go and talk to them and say, look, this is what I'm doing.

David McCredie: who in the department should I go and talk to? Could you help me navigate the department to find the right person? Oftentimes big bureaucratic entities will have a front door. They'll have a front door, which everybody comes through, so they'll say right to, you know, [email protected] au. I don't know that, don't quote me on that email address, but yeah, something like that.

David McCredie: You put some information in, or it's a form on a website you put some information in, it gets triaged internally and they go, right, that will go to this part of the department, and they should actually get back to you. And if they don't. Write again and remind them and then complain if they don't come back to you after two or three

David McCredie: [00:43:00] Engagements with them. Oftentimes it can be as simple as ringing up the department, going to the switchboard and saying, I'm looking to talk to somebody on X policy. What government departments won't do is worry about individual cases. They'll want to talk about policy. That's where they'll wanna start.

David McCredie: If there is a reason for an individual case, then writing directly to a minister or to a secretary is much more effective because it gets triaged from the top as an individual case waiting around in the bureaucracy will take you forever.

David McCredie: That's just fascinating that that differentiation is so clear. Yeah. And the other thing is when you get into trying to figure out how am I gonna navigate all of this? I mean, it's, first of all, government people move very often and mm-hmm. Sometimes they don't really move, but they get a new title and new business cards or they move to a new part of the building or [00:44:00] other pieces happen.

David McCredie: It's very hard to keep that mapping constantly. But the key, particularly in policy side, is getting to know some of the key advisors to the ministers. an easy way is ring the minister's office, I'd like to speak to an advisor on X issue.

David McCredie: They will get back to you if they're not there at the time you speak to them about it. Hopefully they say, yes, this is, interesting. And you say, would you mind referring me to somebody in the department who can help me understand this situation better and why the policy is what it is? And then I'll come back and talk to you later if we think that there's something that we can do to change or make it better or whatever.

David McCredie: And again, that sort of feels like you're helping the advisor because you're possibly finding a win for them down the road because you are prepared to go and talk to the bureaucracy and to work through the issue. that sort of really, when you start knowing a few of those people and you know, some of the [00:45:00] public servants.

David McCredie: Just keep in touch with them. Again, it's the same as your local member, same as any government official. If you keep in touch with them if it's your local member, did they get elected at the last election? If they did, congratulate them, send them a letter saying, congratulations on your new election.

David McCredie: If they're a new personlook forward to seeing you in our community. It's just those touchpoint, and I'm sure there are AI bots and things that do it, but I still believe, particularly in politics and government, seeing people and seeing the whites of their eyes and talking to them regularly, communicating, you know, there's that old saying, you know, communicate, communicate, communicate, communicate, and when you think you've communicated enough, communicate a little bit more.

David McCredie: I believe that's true, but You gotta have the right rhythm and right purpose about how you do that. It can't just be, I've sent you our, weekly scores for the last six weeks and you didn't [00:46:00] read 'em the first time. It has to be something that's gonna be engaging.

David McCredie: Yeah, yeah, absolutely. I'm getting a really strong sense that you love what you do. Yeah. How do you know? The thing about it is when you start figuring out that you can have an impact, however big or small, that idea, and I'm sure , many of the people who will be listening to this podcast would feel that, you know, there's nothing better when you've organized.

David McCredie: That netball competition for 3000 men, women, and children to play on a Saturday afternoon. You see them all do it and you see them all have a great time. And when you get that rush of, Hey, I've achieved something, I've done something good and I've committed to our community, whatever the level is. And knowing that, I think the main thing is when you know that the person who's making any of these decisions, at least at this point in time, is still a human when you know that's true.[00:47:00]

David McCredie: I believe you can convince anybody of just about anything if you passionate. Researched, honest and have good intent. And yeah, there are lots of things that I've had to advocate for in my time. I actually saw Bruce Collins, who's a KC who used to be the chairman of the Sydney Cricket Association.

David McCredie: And back in the early thousands, I was the secretary of the Sydney Women's Cricket Association, and I stood up in front of I'm going to be polite, a room of mainly older gentlemen, definitely not many women. I think there were three women in the room, probably about 60 men, and made the case why women should be allowed to play first grade women's cricket on a Sunday on the pitches that men used on a Saturday.

David McCredie: And I remember being really passionate about it, and I. The thing that I remember [00:48:00] about at the end, I saw Bruce Collins the other day and he said, I remember that speech you gave, 20 odd years ago. Now and guess what, now you look at women's cricket. Yes. They're all, all the women's first grade teams play on the men's first grade grounds.

David McCredie: They say rightly should it, and they should always have. But look at Women's Big Bash now. It's incredible compared to like, people buy tickets to go and see women's cricket. I remember when watching a test at Bankstown that I ran between Australian and the UK in I think 2004, five, I think. You know, they were talking about do we make it a gold coin donation and we give the money to charity for entry.

David McCredie: You know, There was no sponsorship. This is a women's test. This is a women's test. You know, so I was part of change then. I'm not claiming all the credit for it. But, little steps, little bits that you chip off along the way. Yeah. Yeah, it gives you a great sense of [00:49:00] achievement and yeah, I, I like making other people happy too.

David McCredie: And normally I do things that make other people happy. Oh, I love that. I hope that that brings you happiness in turn. It does, it does. Awesome. Well, look, I am grateful for your time, and I know I've taken up quite a lot of it, but I, I just wanted to ask you one final thing, and that is in regard to what you are doing now, which is that you have set up your consultancy, are you working with not-for-profits?

David McCredie: and how can people get more Dave in their lives? Yeah, look, I don't have a podcast. But yeah, look, I'm always happy to help people and I think I just said that 30 seconds before that you asked this question. I'm always looking at ways to help people and, I really feel that my,

David McCredie: going back to my superpowers at the beginning, networking and listening, it's actually connecting those dots then.

David McCredie: Yeah. And so there are always ways that dots can be connected from the most unlikeliest of places. And [00:50:00] so, I'm happy for, people to, email me, drop me a note on LinkedIn, what have you more than happy to, spend half an hour listening to what they think I might be able to do to help.

David McCredie: My business mainly looks after large inbound corporates who are either already in market or, looking for market expansion or new market entry. work with a bunch of small tech startups. I'm running a Commonwealth wide leadership program in the UK and Kenya next year which is another not-for-profit organisation a UK based charity.

David McCredie: So yeah, there's lots of things that I do. And if there's something that somebody wants to ask me a question about, be in touch, be delighted to hear from them. Fabulous. And the website? The website is McCredie partners.com. Mcc, C-R-E-D-I-E, partners with an s.com. Perfect. Thank you.

David McCredie: Thank you so, so much for taking time to join me today. I have found this not [00:51:00] only really informative and chockfull of really tangible, fabulous hints and tips that people can take away and apply, but also just really joyful. So thank you. Thank you very much for sharing your fabulous energy as well as your wealth of knowledge and wisdom.

David McCredie: I really appreciate it. My pleasure, Julie. Anytime.

David McCredie: Thanks for listening to the Service Game podcast by onsomble. If you enjoyed this episode, please like and subscribe and write us a quick review. It helps us to reach more people, and we really appreciate your support. To access our downloadable resources and tailored support options designed for nfps, head to onsomble.com au.

David McCredie: Or look us up on social media. You'll find all our links in the show notes for this episode. Chat next [00:52:00] time.